These days it seems all the rage to squat “low bar”, which also implies a wide stance (slightly to significantly wider than the shoulders) and more focus on the hips & posterior chain as opposed to the quads.
There’s an argument to be made for this, of course, in that it’s probably going to be a stronger position, making better use of bigger, stronger muscle groups. For most people, this may be a good way to go about it.
In powerlifting, the low-bar style is more the rule than the exception, especially in the current era of gear-fetishism. Even IPF-affiliates with single-ply gear tend to make use of the low-bar variety, although they tend to be far less exaggerated about it than their multi-ply cousins. I’m not going to bag on multi-ply feds and lifters, but it’s pretty clear that the squatting in those feds is a whole different animal from a raw (unequipped or belt+wraps only) squat.
But what about the low-bar squat’s shunned cousin, the high-bar (or Olympic-style) squat? I got to thinking about this earlier as I’ve been in a spiral of training ADD about my own lifting, and I recalled something from a few years ago.
At the time, I’d yet to pull over 500 lbs. I think my best ever was something like 475 or so. I went on what we’d now call the Texas Method or the “Bill Starr intermediate” routine: 5 sets of 5 on Monday, one heavy set of 5 on Friday. I don’t have my old journal sitting right here in front of me, but I recall pretty clearly that Wednesday was given over to DLs, and at that point I didn’t do much but 2-3 heavier sets and something not unlike speed pulls (lots of singles with a moderate percentage).
This program was squat heavy and very minimal on the DLs. Importantly, and relevant to the topic, the squatting I did was high-bar, full-depth Olympic style. In fact, here’s a video taken from around that timeframe:
As you can see, the bar’s pretty high up on my traps, my stance is pretty narrow, and I sink it right down to the floor. That’s the kind of squat I’m talking about.
Now to continue the story, I did squats like that, in the 5×5 program, for about six weeks. I really have no idea what kind of weights I was hitting, although I do recall hitting 365×5 at one point (and switching to triples after that). Now here’s the thing – I took an easy week to test my deadlift, and figured I’d give 500 a try. Based on how pulling had felt in prior weeks, I didn’t expect to get more than one rep. I ended up pulling 500×5.
After that, I was sold on the idea of squatting to help the pull. Fast-forward a few years later, and I seem to have forgotten to listen to my own wisdom. What prompted me to write this is my on-going battle to pull 600 lbs by the end of the year, and the fact that my squatting has been severely hampered lately due to two unfortunate injuries that I’d rather not repeat.
I’ve been focusing on the low-bar style of squatting almost exclusively the past few years, and I can say without hesitation that it’s a pure matter of ego. It’s much harder to squat high-bar, though in the end I really have to wonder if it’s not more productive.
Besides my own experience, I’ve found other wisdom to back up my reasoning. Glenn Pendlay, always a great source of lifting-wisdom, has this to say:
1) There is the assumption that high bar squats, done very deep, do not work the posterior chain. I would propose that they do, and the difference between high bar and low bar and the posterior chain is not as large as some would assume it is.
When I converted from PL to OL, I converted from low bar, powerlifting type squats (medium stance) to closer stance high bar squats with a fairly upright torso, although I dont think my torso was ever as upright as some coaches would prefer. I remember my lower back and glutes being very sore over the first couple of workouts, these workouts were with weights around 365lbs to 405lbs. For comparison, my last heavy low bar back squat set done before this was 730lbs for a set of 3, to be fair this was with suit and wraps. I still remember that set, done in the left hand squat rack in the back of Rip’s old gym, because it was supposed to be a set of 5, and I lost my balance and dumped it on the pins on the 4th rep.
My observations at the time were that the longer lever arm created by putting the bar higher on the back was overriding the decreased angle of the back, and making it even harder for my lumbar muscles to maintan a tight back and for my hip extensors to extend the hip. I am not trying to say that HB squats work the posterior chain more than LB squats, I do not personally believe this, I am just making the point that the differences are not as clear cut as some are making them.
2) As I see it, the heart of this argument is really about the carry-over of LB and HB squats to other things, specifically OL. Here are a few general observations about carry-over.
When I was a good LB squatter, that strength did not carry over well to HB or front squats, as evidenced by some of the numbers above. When later in my lifting career, I became a decent HB squatter, it directly and immedietly carried over to being able to do very respectable numbers in the LB squat. My front squat of 550lbX5reps and HB back squat of 606lbsX10 reps, both done without a belt, these sets done about a month apart, allowed me to do several very, very respectable LB squats, and LB box squats with no practice or training on either the LB squat or the LB box squat. My feeling was that strength gained from HB squatting was just more “transferable” to other things than strength gained from LB squatting. Through many conversations with others, and a fair bit of experience coaching ex-powerlifters in the Olympic lifts, I have found that this seems to be quite universal. HB, Olympic style squatting will make you strong at the LB squat, LB squatting with a more bent over stance and less depth will NOT carry over well to the HB, Olympic style squat. I think the carry over from one to another bears considering, because what what we are really talking about here is the carry over from one type of squat or another to a completely different exercise.
Fred Hatfield, AKA “Dr. Squat” who is a respected authority on strength training, has written a couple of very good books on the subject, and who competed at a fairly high level in both gymnastics and OL before achieving a 1008lb squat at 44 years of age and I believe around 255lbs, has argued extensively that not only should the HB squat be used EXCLUSIVELY for the training of athletes, but its qualities of carry over are such that even POWERLIFTERS who are actually competing with a low bar, bent over, only to parallel and sometimes wide stance squat, should in fact do HB, Olympic style squats for much of the off season. In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it.
Note his points about overall carryover; it would seem his experience agrees with my own – getting strong on the Olympic/high-bar squat will add more to the PL-style squat than the opposite case, and if you’re a conventional puller, it’ll probably help that too (as in my anecdote).
I like to note things like this, because it’s important from a training economy point of view. This is a case where spending some time bumping the high-bar squat will probably transfer over to just about everything else – front squat, low-bar squat, and yes, even my beloved deadlift.
I’d also like to point out that there is a compromise here. You can still do a low-bar style with a closer stance and a lot of depth. I used to call these “IPF squats” for no real reason except that I could. Here’s an example:
Ignore my hip-tucking, that’s an old issue I had and something you should ideally avoid. What I want you to see is that I’ve still got a close stance and still get pretty damn deep; the difference is where the bar sits on my traps.
Glenn says roughly the same thing:
I also think the HB vs LB controversy has less meaning than has been assigned to it… for example, one certainly can squat with the bar in a low position and still do a pretty upright, deep squat, that as far as body position would satisfy any Olympic lifting coach. One can also do a HB squat and get quite bent over, I have personally proven that many times! Simply changing the position of the bar on the back doesnt magically change a good exercise to a bad one, or vice versa.
I like this part too:
I am not so sure that I agree with Fred Hatfields view that HB, Olympic style squats are so superior and have such a superior strength transfer to other activities that not only all athletes should be doing it that way, but even competitive powerlifters who compete with a low bar squat should do much of their training with the HB squat. I am inclined to think in this direction, but it is certainly not as clear cut an issue as the one pertaining to OLers. Fred’s accomplishments and achievements do lend some credibility to his views though.
(The original post can be found here: http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=404418&postcount=93)
So in short, I really have to wonder if all this “powerlifting” I’ve been doing lately is for the worst – most of my squatting has looked more like that second video, low-bar position but still relatively narrow stance and still going pretty deep (minus the hip-tuck, I’ve gotten over that these days thanks to a lot more mobility work).
I think giving the high-bar Oly stuff a shot may be worthwhile.
I don’t usually listen to people online that quote squat numbers. If someone has a video, or is a competing powerlifter or Olympic weightlifter, that’s one thing. It isn’t a matter of lying, either. I think most people just don’t realize what actually constitutes a real squat.
